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Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I'm pretty sure you can't repair people from the inside of a station or the wrong side of a gate so I'm failing to see the issue.
Also if logistics jumps through a gate just go after it and kill it, it really isn't brain surgery. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump? |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 16:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump? The whole point of having neut RR is to not have them show up as assets untill needed. Given that Empire is a rather busy place its rather hard to pick them out of a crowd.
This thread is not about neutral logistics. You are projecting. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Xtover wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump? I think the matter is more with docking games than jumping. That being said, a dictor bubble is now agression even though it does no DPS- it's strictly a fleet-enhancing mechanic for your side, as is RR. I know.. this takes away the way you play your empire wars but hey, sucks for you.
I don't think people understand exactly what the effect this kind of change would have on station games would be.
If someone providing logistics support inherets the timer from the aggressed ship they are assisting logistics ships will still be able to remote repair a de-aggressing ship until it can dock and then remotely repair eachother until they can dock because no act of aggression has been performed by either logistics ship or the ship they were assisting.
It's not a particularly significant change to how logistics works unless you only have a singular logistics ship on the field and are losing the fight anyway. Or if you're an Orphan and are perpetually covered in remote sensor boosting blackbirds. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
That's the exact suggestion I was talking about actually. I'd make practically no difference to how folks with multiple logistics ships use RR in highsec. The people it would affect are the people who will steal a cargo container then sit on an undock with a neutral oneiros or scimitar on standby to rep them when half a dozen bees undock on to shoot them which would actually be awesome because I hate those people and encounter them all the time.
It's fine by me, it just won't solve the "problem" with logistics in empire and people will still whine about being spanked by a fleet that brought 5 guardians with them.
The entire argument boils down to "They had logistics and we didn't" or "Some idiot managed to dock because he had someone rep him then he talked smack in local and I am butthurt" and that solution resolves neither. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Demarcus wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump? If it is a neutral doing the RR you have no way of identifying it as an enemy asset until it is too late.
The fact that it's a logistics ship that is fleet warping with your war targets might be a giveaway.
I mean really, even if you have to use an in corp character with a covops ship it isn't difficult to find and look at people you're at war with. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them. game mechanics.. hmm ok .. so lets start group A fighting group B both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever group C come along start repping group A the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless... So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug... Anyway not that i care... If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time.. Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries
I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight.
Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
I actually don't have an RR alt.
Everyone I know laughs at me because of it. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 19:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them. game mechanics.. hmm ok .. so lets start group A fighting group B both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever group C come along start repping group A the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless... So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug... Anyway not that i care... If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time.. Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight. Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway. But you see shooting them IS pointless, and you cannot stop them from affecting the combat for more than a few seconds. If you shoot them and they jump through a gate, or dock, they only need be gone long enough to get back though the gate or get undocked again. They immediately pick up right where they left off. No risk, no way to do more than make them pause for a few seconds. Somehow, I don't think that is the role that CCP really intended for these ships to play in Empire warfare.
I'm going to make a guess and say that you don't actually have any experience with logistics in empire at all. Because literally all you have to do to destroy a logistics ship that has jumped through a gate is have a T1 frigate sitting on the other side. And if you had the DPS to force a logistics ship to dock in the first instance you'll be able to force it to dock again before it can do anything.
The gentleman with the poor english skills seems to know quite alot more about empire logistics than you, it's much more likely that the logistics pilot will undock in a machariel or vindicator and start raping faces than to undock in a logistics ship and start repping again.
Also typically in any given war in empire only one side will be fielding logistics or one side will have vastly superior logistics to the other and they won't have to dock or jump their logistics to begin with so the whole issue of logistics and docking timers is not even an issue. The exception being when highsec merc corps are fighting eachother and both sides are just groups of armor battleships and guardians that can barely kill eachother. |
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Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 21:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
You don't want boosting to be considered an act of aggression, that might not cause problems in nullsec but the problems it would cause in highsec are immense. Just being in fleet with someone would allow you to make the Fleet, Wing and squad commands as well as the fleet booster turn red just by taking a cargo container or shooting at someone, I could go and canflip a mining op and when someone comes to shoot at me the fleet boosting orca would turn red. Or in an incursion fleet I could take a cargo container and the logistics would not only cease to rep me, but also cease to rep the entire command chain.
That kind of thing would be great for griefing, but I don't think that's what you were after.
As someone who lives in highsec, is constantly at war and having been on both sides of the war equation I think your last point is completely wrong and backwards. In highsec you have no space, territory or POS towers that you need to defend so you only fight people you are at war with when you want to fight them or they catch you with your pants down doing something stupid. Making people who are already extremely risk averse more vulnerable to loss won't make them fight more, it will make them less willing to dedicate assets to a fight. People who declare wars will just mitigate the risk by bringing even more logistics and the defenders who are usually poor in isk and inexperience will be even more reluctant to field their own approximate assets.
EDIT: Actually we need to do the booster thing I support it 100% there is a particular person I can use this to kill over and over |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 23:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:The only change being discussed it whether an aggression timer should apply.
If providing fleet bonuses should count as remote assistance a fleet member stealing a cargo container or shooting someone will give the fleet booster (and probably all associated wing and squad commanders) an aggression countdown. I just want you to know what that means for people in highsec.
Also fights don't happen at planets because fleets don't sit at planets because there is no reason to be at a planet. If people sat their fleets at planets other people would drop their fleets on them. Fighting happens at gates and stations because people travel from stations to gates to other gates or stations and is only possible to fight people at the places that they are at. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.05 23:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
What about them? |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.06 00:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Amazing, a lucid response from someone who understands what is actually going on. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.06 00:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
You must live in a strange part of highsec where the POS towers aren't set up with literally dozens of ECM and neut batteries. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.06 00:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:You must live in a strange part of highsec where the POS towers aren't set up with literally dozens of ECM and neut batteries. Who is talking High Sec POS's. The thread is about RR Mechanics.
I am talking about highsec because that is the type of space that is relevant to me and talking about mechanics changes without thinking about how they will affect different parts of space is cretinous. |
Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2011.12.06 01:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:If providing fleet bonuses should count as remote assistance a fleet member stealing a cargo container or shooting someone will give the fleet booster (and probably all associated wing and squad commanders) an aggression countdown. I just want you to know what that means for people in highsec. Absolutely. In fact, that's an excellent suggestion. If a fleet booster has his command link modules activated (thereby assisting his fleet during a situation where aggression is involved) I would have no problem with him getting an aggression timer. They would need to shut them down for the timer to start cycling down if his fleet members were still engaged. The same would go for other forms of remote assistance such as remote sensor boosting, remote ECCM, remote tracking, remote repping, etc. If the module is activated and the recipient of it is involved in an act of aggression, you are culpable as well. If this happens "during" the period you are remotely assisting the modules deactivate and you get a pop up as you do now (although you need to be able to disable this precaution if you wish). Also you really should be careful about distinguishing between an aggression timer and a GCC in your arguments.
At no point am I talking about GCC. I am mostly alking about the aggression countdowns that allow people in highsec who aren't at war with eachother to shoot eachother, the same type of countdown that makes it possible to shoot at people who steal from containers or remotely assist war targets.
I think that optimally anyone passively providing fleet bonuses through leadership skills should get one of these aggression countdowns and anyone actively providing bonuses via gang links should get one of these in addition to the docking/jumping timer like you said. The regular aggression timer for passive boosts might not affect nullsec or wormholes, but in highsec it allows you to at least force the person providing leadership bonuses off the field in the event that they are neutral and in lowsec it allows you to attack them without going GCC and being shot at by gate guns for 15 minutes. |
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